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CNN Live Event/Special

Conclave Mass Ends, First Vote From Cardinals To Come Later; First Vote From Cardinals Expected In Coming Hours. Aired 5:30-6a ET

Aired May 07, 2025 - 05:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[05:30:00]

KIM DANIELS, DIRECTOR, INITIATIVE ON CATHOLIC SOCIAL THOUGHT AND PUBLIC LIFE, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Frankly, a challenge from not just influence but removed from everyday life. And that was the experience Father Beck was talking about --

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Um-hum.

DANIELS: -- and I think that's the experience that they'll have right now.

BURNETT: So, Christopher, they leave this mass. They go to Santa Marta where they're staying, and they have a lunch. Now let me ask you about this lunch because for those who have seen the conclave, they would see this sort of boarding school -- a la camp communal table atmosphere of the room.

Is that what it's like?

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's not too dissimilar to the movie. I mean, the casa Santa Marta has a -- basically a dining hall where people could sit at round tables. So I imagine it's a case of choosing your closest friend or the people you know well. And maybe they'll be in language groups. I don't know.

BURNETT: Yeah.

LAMB: But they'll sort of choose where they want to sit, and they'll have that lunch. And I imagine that will be a chance to have some conversations about what's going to happen next.

BURNETT: So in the conclave movie and actually -- because we just heard some of the prayers said in multiple languages -- Chinese, German, Malay, and others, Kim. How does this work? In the movie the split between progressive and tradition actually did center upon language, right? Look it, they are sitting split by language. We should all speak Latin. You know, a --

But how does that work? Is English a common language? Is it -- I mean, you have a lot of Italians in that room but how do the conversations work?

DANIELS: I think that they will split in some sense along language lines just for practicality's sake. And at the same time I think it's not quite that kind of binary division that you saw in the movie.

BURNETT: Yeah.

DANIELS: You know, this idea of conservative and progressive -- there's so many more axes of conversation in this huge multipolar church. You know, people coming from just totally different cultures with concerns that might include just saving lives or putting food in people's bellies, right? Those are some of the practical concerns that some of these cardinals' face. And so it's just a very different conversation.

BURNETT: And Christopher, you say some of the people who are not in the room are very much trying to influence. That the politics going on -- and no doubt there's plenty in the room -- but outside is intense.

LAMB: Oh, yes, it's been intense. Obviously, there's been a huge amount of media interest and social media interest in this election. And there are those groups who would like to see a pope in a very different mold to Francis. They've been in Rome. They've been handing out dossiers and information and pushing certain candidates.

BURNETT: Yeah.

LAMB: I think the cardinals are conscious of that but they're also I think very keen to not allow that to influence --

BURNETT: Yes.

LAMB: -- their discussions.

BURNETT: Yeah. You were pointing to one of the frontrunners who is described as controversial --

LAMB: Yeah.

BURNETT: -- which seemed to be code for more progressives. The modifier meant so much.

Ben Wedeman has been with us here in St. Peter's Square. Ben, as people are gathering, we're really now seeing more and more people stream in because we will get the first vote in just hours. But you've had a chance to speak to people who came to hear the mass who are now coming in, and what are they telling you about why they are here at this moment?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Let me first tell you last time we spoke, Erin, this area in front of St. Peter's Square was mostly journalists. Now I think you get a better idea looking down the Via della Conciliazione just how many people have now converged on the area around the Vatican.

Now, we spoke to a variety of people from really around the world, and what we're hearing is a diversity of opinion you might expect from the Catholic Church.

We spoke to one -- two women from Colorado in the United States who told us that they were hoping in terms of the outcome of the conclave that the next pope would be very much along the lines of Pope Francis -- somebody who is a liberal. Who is progressive on social issues. Who wants the church to be more inclusive.

And we spoke to others also from the United States who were hoping for a pope along the line of John Paul II who was more socially conservative. Who was more concerned with the traditions of the Catholic Church.

So I think you really do have a diversity of opinion here but everyone is very -- sort of feels privileged that they can be here in Rome for this historic conclave. And so I think we're going to be seeing more people coming to St. Peter's Square as the day progresses.

And certainly it's unlikely that the first vote this afternoon will result in black smoke, so this could go on for a few days perhaps -- hopefully, not 1,006 like it was back in 1268.

[05:35:00]

But this is a conclave that obviously is bringing a lot of people to this area very interested to see this important moment in history -- Erin.

BURNETT: Well, I could say Ben, you know, 1,000 days -- I can think of worse things in this career than relocating to Rome.

But for those who are streaming in where you are -- you know, what do you -- what do you anticipate as people gather for the smoke? And there will be smoke today, as you point out -- the first vote. And then we'll have four votes a day until there is actually a pope.

WEDEMAN: Yeah. I think that this is really going to keep people glued to their cellphones, the television, and those who can come here definitely are going to want to see the smoke, whether it's black or white.

You don't get to see this very often. Keep in mind, for instance, that Pope John Paul II was pope for 27 years. So for 27 years there was no conclave. This is a historic occasion, and I think that people are going to be watching very closely.

And I live here in Rome. My wife's Italian. And I can tell you that people in this city who normally -- they don't always go to church but when they hear that the smoke coming out of the chimney above the Sistine Chapel is white -- what I saw back in 2013, for example, was it almost seemed organic. People living in this area of Rome and those beyond this immediate area just came streaming into this area into St. Peter's Square because what people want to be -- they want to be here at that moment when the name of the new pope is announced.

And oftentimes they don't even know who the candidate -- the new pope is but they meet it with applause because it is such an important moment in the history of the church when the name of the new pontiff of Rome is announced -- Erin.

BURNETT: It is -- it is, indeed, an honor for them, I'm sure, to feel -- to be present at such a moment in history.

All right, we -- that chimney that you see on the screen, as Ben and I are here -- I want everyone to know that's what you're going to see here for days because that's where the smoke is going to come out. It's just behind where we are, the Sistine Chapel -- the Sistine Chapel. We can't quite see from there but there are angles from here where you can see that chimney and that is the chimney where you will see the smoke, whether it is white or black, or mostly likely a shade of gray that is indeterminant until we wait to hear if there are the bells that signify a new pope.

We are going to take a brief break in our ongoing coverage of this historic conclave. We'll be right back here from the Vatican in a few moments.

(COMMERCIAL)

[05:42:00]

BURNETT: Welcome back to our breaking coverage of this historic moment, the conclave for the 267th pope. A conclave is in progress. The cardinals are sequestered. They've lost their phones; they've lost their iPads. All of those things now gone. Sequestered until there is a pope.

And now they have concluded the conclave mass. The next steps now: they're going to go back to Santa Marta, which is the house where they have been staying -- sort of a very hotel-like dorm experience. They will have a communal lunch there. And then they will each -- in order, one-by-one -- take the oath -- the oath to elect a new pope. And they will be in the Sistine Chapel and then it will begin.

So Christopher, as you -- as you think about this moment and just as you were watching the mass, looking at some of the frontrunners -- and I use the word loosely because there's what we know and think and then there's what is and the Venn diagram between those two is large or small and we'll see. But you noticed some of the frontrunners in St. Peter's this morning.

LAMB: Yes. One of them, Cardinal Parolin, I saw, who is often talked of as the frontrunner. I saw Cardinal Tagle from the Philippines there in the front row. I noticed that Cardinal Re, at the sign of peace --

BURNETT: Who was giving the homily and --

LAMB: Who was giving the homily, yes.

BURNETT: Yeah.

LAMB: He went up to Cardinal Parolin and sort of almost kind of gave him almost like an embrace but sort of was to say courage, you know. I don't know if that was from --

BURNETT: Yeah. You felt -- you felt that?

LAMB: Yes, I felt that. I don't want to overanalyze it but -- BURNETT: Um-hum.

LAMB: -- Cardinal Parolin is seen as a frontrunner by some.

So just these kind of little signs I think are important to watch. The body language is crucial. So, yeah.

But I think there is that saying, "He who enters a conclave a pope leaves a cardinal." So I think in this conclave it's the outsiders who could storm through. I don't know. We'll see.

BURNETT: Yes.

LAMB: It's a prediction but that's just my sense.

BURNETT: And Kim, there are more outsiders in the traditional sense of the word now than perhaps ever because the vast majority of these cardinals were appointed by Pope Francis at the same time that he eliminated their sort of regular meetings with the whole intent of go be among people. Be -- you know, that it wasn't about be together as a group of cardinals removed from others.

But what that means now is that they're new. A lot of them are "outsiders." They don't know each other. There is just a real uncertainty about the outcome that is unusual.

DANIELS: I think that's right. You know, on the one hand we all hear the names of the frontrunners and all sorts of other names being tossed around, but the one thing we know is that we don't know who will walk out on that balcony.

They have come from all over the world. Many of them don't know each other. Many of them do know each other from these gatherings that they've had the past two Octobers. It'll be really interesting to see what comes through at the end of the day.

[05:45:00]

BURNETT: So Christopher, behind us -- I was just looking at the screen to see how much you could see. You can see the oval-esque, right? But behind us now you get a very, very clear view.

LAMB: Yes.

BURNETT: That is where there will be a pope.

LAMB: That's right.

BURNETT: And when the vote -- now, there will be a vote today. I guess I can't be definitive but it's almost certain there will not be a pope today. You have to get a two-thirds majority, so it'll take a little bit more time. But then once there is a pope, we don't know who it is -- nobody. No social media, no first leak, nothing until he walks out there --

LAMB: Yeah. BURNETT: -- on that balcony.

LAMB: Everyone finds out at the same time, including the journalists. Now --

BURNETT: As we turn and see it.

LAMB: We turn and see it. It is basically -- it is literally that everyone finds out at the same time.

I remember being in the square in 2013 when Francis was elected. The name Bergoglio came out and I remember everyone around me saying, "Who is he?" It was a real surprise and it was, you know, such a dramatic, surprising moment.

BURNETT: And Kim, it's also -- we say that we won't know until we know. We also don't know where they are in the process. So when there is smoke today and it's black smoke and there is no pope, which we presume it will be, we don't know whether they are zoning in on eight or four, or three, or -- we have no idea. And as they move forward, we'll have no idea.

DANIELS: We'll have no idea. It's that sense of prayerful expectation.

And I was here in 2013 as well and I also remember that feeling of, again, the global church sort of coming together. We talked earlier about people streaming in organically from the streets. That's one of my strongest memories that this was just --

BURNETT: Yeah.

DANIELS: -- a time for the people of Rome as well as the universal church. And it's really just an extraordinary experience.

BURNETT: Right. And to think about the power of place which is so palpable in this moment being here and, in this moment, where there is no advantage to social media or anything. You literally have to see and sit and watch for it as so many people are doing, whether Romans or the countless visitors here.

Ben Wedeman among both groups -- both groups, Ben, where you are here on St. Peter's Square.

WEDEMAN: Yes, it is filling up Erin with people who are coming for this historic moment -- these historic days here outside the Vatican City.

Now, we're joined by Mary, Jill, and --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jill.

WEDEMAN: Joan and Jill, sorry -- from Minnesota and Texas.

So Mary, what brings you here? Why is it important to be here today?

MARY, U.S. RESIDENT: My daughter brought me to Rome. My granddaughter is here studying abroad and we're taking her home.

WEDEMAN: And in terms of the events here --

MARY: Oh.

WEDEMAN: -- of the conclave. A pope is being selected -- or elected.

MARY: Yes. I'm waiting for the smoke. It's going to be fast -- maybe today.

WEDEMAN: Maybe today or maybe tomorrow or the day after.

But what are you looking for in terms of the qualities of the next pope.

JILL, U.S. RESIDENT: Um, I think that the -- I think we were all inspired by Pope Francis and his ability to bring the world together and to look at everybody as a human and a person. And the fact that it was -- he didn't, like, put himself above everyone. He felt he was a pope of the people. I think we all became very connected to him in that way, and I think that the next pope should bring that same quality because it really brought the world together.

WEDEMAN: And there is talk that perhaps this time the pope could be American. What do you say to that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That would be awesome since we're American. I hope -- I hope one day that will happen. I think it would be a great unity for America and the Catholic Church there, and just a different approach to the Vatican. A different feel for non-Italian or anything.

WEDEMAN: It certainly would be a change. And yes, since Italian seems to be the language of the church at the moment it might switch to English. Who knows?

JILL: Yeah.

WEDEMAN: All right. So, Erin, there you have three points of view.

MARY: Let me say --

WEDEMAN: Yes, one more thing.

MARY: -- that you are the first to say that about an American pope. That gives me great pleasure to know that the people think highly.

WEDEMAN: Yeah, there are names being --

MARY: Who?

WEDEMAN: -- discussed, but there are also 133 cardinals in the conclave from 70 countries around the world. So it's hard to see.

MARY: Yes.

WEDEMAN: We shall see. So there you go, Erin. Back to you.

BURNETT: All right, Ben.

Well, you know, obviously Ben talking to three Americans. There never has been an American pope and Christopher, there's been a reason for that. In a sense, America's role in the world already being so outsized. Well, we are in a very odd moment where America is choosing to break up with much of the world with which it has been aligned.

[05:50:00]

How do those politics -- do those politics play a role where you do have a cardinal from Chicago you've talked about who is considered by some to be a frontrunner?

LAMB: Well look, I think the politics do play a role and I think that it has led some cardinals to think well, that past conventional wisdom that there can't be an American pope -- well, that no longer holds.

And one of the candidates that we have talked about as an American pope is Cardinal Robert Prevost who is born in Chicago and spent a lot of his life outside of the U.S. He was in Peru for many years.

BURNETT: Yeah.

LAMB: He was a bishop in Peru.

Also, Cardinal Tobin of Newark, New Jersey is being talked about.

So I think there is an openness there amongst the cardinals. And there's also a sense, I've been told, that nationality is not so important. That's not the most important thing.

BURNETT: So Father Beck, how do you see that as an American priest?

FATHER EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION COMMENTATOR, AUTHOR, JOURNALIST, CATHOLIC PRIEST: Well, I think that it would be interesting to have an American. I do think that there is a sentiment still though that America has a lot of power. A lot of centralization in America.

And again, we have, as we said, from all of 24 countries that have never been here before. Seventy different countries participating and 80 percent of these men have never voted in a conclave.

So while some of the American candidates may be appealing to us, I think that there's such a diversity here and that people have been inspired by Pope Francis going to the southern hemisphere for a pope. And now maybe to Asia or even Africa.

So I think an American may have a shot and probably Cardinal Prevost, whom Christopher just spoke of, has the best shot. I'm not sure, really, the other cardinals would be thinking that we want an American just yet. That we need to continue to diversify and make sure that the southern hemisphere is as attended to as the rest of the world seems to have been. BURNETT: And yet, of course, Christopher, so many of the frontrunners are Italian -- even Pizzaballa who has spent his career in Jerusalem --

LAMB: Yeah.

BURNETT: -- still Italian born and bred.

LAMB: Well, of course, the pope being the bishop of Rome, the Italians obviously feel a sense of ownership of the papacy.

BURNETT: Yes.

LAMB: And there's obviously every time a conclave happens Italians would like the pope to be from Italy. Of course, there hasn't been an Italian pope since 1978.

So I don't know. I mean, there are obviously a number of frontrunners who are Italian cardinals. The question, of course, with the Italians is are they going to be united behind one cardinal?

BURNETT: Right.

LAMB: They're often split. So that is quite important.

I think Asia is also worth looking at because, of course, the Catholic Church in Asia is very dynamic.

BURNETT: Yes.

LAMB: And there's also -- there's talk of Cardinal Tagle from the Philippines but also Cardinal David also of the Philippines.

So the cardinals may look there. I mean, sometimes the cardinals may feel we like this part of the world, but we don't have a candidate. I think the qualities of the candidate are really important and it is vital.

BURNETT: Yes, yes.

And Kim, interesting -- Cardinal Tagle -- I believe it is his through his maternal grandmother -- also is Chinese. So there is a -- and, of course, we'll see, which is why this first vote -- again, it's not as if we're going to know not just even how people do but how many candidates emerge in the first vote. But this first vote that we are hours away from is going to be crucial in that room.

How many get how many? How many votes does it take to be OK, you are now -- is it 20? Is it --

DANIELS: You know, I think traditionally you would hear that we'll see somewhere upwards of 30 for some of the frontrunners, and then there will be others in the background who are getting votes in maybe the single digits or a little bit above that, and that indicates some level of support. And we'll got back and forth on that. I think that for my -- to my mind it's less about nationality and it's more about the qualities they bring. First of all, who can be a follower of Jesus Christ. Who can bring -- draw people to the gospel and draw people to the Catholic Church. Someone maybe we've talked about being a moral voice on the world stage and someone who might be able to continue the reforms that Pope Francis has put in place and started but need to be continued.

BURNETT: Christopher, it is also -- and just to be pragmatic, I think The Wall Street Journal had a fantastic article about the financial issues for the Vatican, whether it be corruption financial -- which Francis was supposed to tackle and failed to do so at the level that he wanted to or that needed to be done.

The finances of the Vatican are in -- are in a difficult shape despite some reforms and whoever becomes pope has to deal with that practical aspect of this. It is crucial.

LAMB: Yes. A major part of the pope's job is to govern the church and, of course, the Vatican. And as you say, there are serious financial challenges facing the Vatican. Pope Francis did tackle corruption. He did set in place lots of laws.

[05:55:00]

BURNETT: Yeah.

LAMB: He allowed for a cardinal to face a trial in the Vatican for financial misconduct -- unheard of.

BURNETT: Yeah.

LAMB: But there's still a long way to go. And the big problem is the Vatican doesn't have enough income, and so there's a big black hole in the pension fund and they don't seem to be able to get enough --

BURNETT: Yeah.

LAMB: -- to keep the folks going.

BURNETT: I mean, Kim, we were talking about one of the anecdotes that The Wall Street Journal shared while small, I think can speak to anyone watching, which is that the income situation is so dire that it got to the point where they didn't want people who were part of the Vatican to leave Vatican City -- there's not really a formal line here -- to go get coffee. And there were cardinals -- what -- the coffee is better in Rome across the street, right, and then to go. A small, small anecdote that is a light one, but beneath that an incredibly serious point.

You have the Sistine Chapel. You have some of the most valuable art and jewels and manuscripts on the planet here. And yet, it's, in a sense, not worth anything because they're not going to sell it.

DANIELS: Exactly, right? A lot of the Vatican's income comes from, frankly, the museums and other places, right, where tourists come. You could really think of the budget of the Vatican being more in line with that of a university in the United States as opposed to --

BURNETT: Yeah, I understand.

DANIELS: Because these artworks and this wonderful architecture -- it's not for sale. The precise point is that it's here for the people -- it's not in some private collection -- so that everyone can appreciate it.

And that means, right, as Chris said, it's time to continue that process of financial reform. That certainly will be one thing the next pope will be charged with handling.

BURNETT: Yeah, and absolutely crucial because you need that -- you need that strength to continue to grow, as you say, the most diverse religion on the -- on the planet.

So, Father Beck, for the frontrunners right now -- you know, such that we believe them to be -- what are these next hours like for them as they all go and have this communal lunch and get ready to take the oath? How is it different for a frontrunner in that room who is well aware that he is a frontrunner and yet can't act as such or else he may not be?

BECK: That is exactly the point, Erin, that if they pretend they are or they acknowledge that they're being talked about then the votes go down. Now some of then who are frontrunners maybe don't even want to be pope.

BURNETT: Yeah.

BECK: Remember, Pope Francis, once he started to get votes --

BURNETT: Yeah.

BECK: -- the first time, he told people vote for somebody else. I don't want to be pope. And that's how Benedict finally got elected.

So it's not like all of them want it, but those who are talked about certainly know they're being talked about. But as Christopher said, if you go in as a frontrunner you usually leave as a cardinal. So they also don't want to appear ambitious and yet, what an honor and what a privilege to be able to have that kind of power and influence over the church and the world. And I think that some --

BURNETT: Yeah.

BECK: -- of these men think I really could do a great job, and I could follow the legacy of Francis, or some of them think no, Francis went the wrong way. We need to go back to more doctrinaire, more strict --

BURNETT: Right.

BECK: -- observance.

And so they'd love to push some of their agenda and if being pope is going to help them do it, fine. But remember that room -- BURNETT: Yeah.

BECK: -- where they go to get dressed is called the "Room of Tears" -- Stanza delle Lacrime --

BURNETT: Yes.

BECK: -- because so many popes have broken down once they've gotten into that room and started to be vested realizing the weight of their responsibility they were taking on.

So it's not easy job. These men are not young. Can you imagine in your 70s, 80s taking on that kind of administration --

BURNETT: Yeah.

BECK: -- and that kind of pressure?

BURNETT: Yeah.

BECK: And so none of it's easy. And yet, some of them are younger, but the younger ones -- you know, people say well, we don't want to elect someone too young --

BURNETT: Yeah.

BECK: -- because we have them for too long. I mean, people though the papacy of John Paul II was too long.

So it'll be an interesting dynamic to see --

BURNETT: Yeah.

BECK: -- who the ages of the person they elect and also what the temperament is.

BURNETT: Yes.

And I'm also curious, Christopher, what is the vetting? And again, to the movie that people saw, right, there was a -- one of the frontrunners who had had an affair and a child out of wedlock many years before and that was how he fell in the rankings. And then there was another one where corruption was an issue and that's why he fell in the rankings.

Does everybody know when it comes to their histories?

LAMB: Well, I think the answer is no. I mean, the vetting process is informal and it's done by -- say there's a candidate. There will be people speaking to those who know him very well who maybe saw him when he -- when he was a junior priest of part of a religious order.

So there is a way of getting a good profile of that, particularly if you're in a religious order and --

BURNETT: Yes. LAMB: -- a religious community. You know, they say you can't really kind of hide your failings there very easily.

BURNETT: Yes.

LAMB: So, I mean, there are ways of finding out candidates' profile, but it is an informal process, not a formal one.

BURNETT: Yes, which is -- which is incredible, Kim, to think about that.

[06:00:06]

DANIELS: It is. And you know, we talk a lot about all of the chatter here around who it might be. But I want to point to the real contribution of journalism. Right?

It's important that we know more, we have some transparency around who will, potentially, become the next pope. And so responsible journalism really contributes to this conversation.

BURNETT: Yes. All right. Well, thanks so much to all of you.

And of course, we're going to be here for this incredible moment in history and the swearing in, and the first vote coming up in just hours.

I'm Erin Burnett, here in the Vatican in Rome. And let's hand it off to John, Kate, and Sarah now. CNN THIS MORNING starts now.